aquabean | A question of faith.

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A question of faith.

I find myself blankly offended.

In some ways I'm even more offended because I am a Christian. My faith has always been important to me. Being queer and Christian are two things that most people seem to feel are mutually exclusive, but I can't agree. And then I read things like this. It is painful on a fundamental level. To feel this kind of hatred aimed at me by people who claim, at the same time, to want to bring "Christ's love" to the world.

"You telling these miserable, Hell-bound, bath house-wallowing, anal-copulating fags that God loves them!? You have bats in the belfry!"

That? Where does that come from? Where does that kind of hate fit into Christ's tenant that we are to "love your neighbor as yourself"? It doesn't. It's that simple. It just doesn't. I know that growing up I was terrified of my own sexuality. That the very idea that I might be even a little bit "that way" was something that was out of the question. My ability to wrap my mind around the thought that I was queer wasn't something I was capable of. Convinced that I would be disowned and abandoned, I simply decided to ignore it. My bisexuality was something I viewed as a kind of safety net. I wasn't lying to anyone, I wasn't doing anything wrong, I simply didn't allow that aspect of myself to have any kind of outward effect on my life. I lived the "don't ask don't tell" ideal.

And it ate me from the inside out.

Coming to terms with what I -- no, who I -- am was far from easy. I spent years walking a fine line that, at times, wasn't a line at all, but simply a free fall. Raised to believe that being queer was something patently unacceptable, a sin, something only the craven and wicked chose for themselves left me feeling hollow and lost. I knew God loved me. That certainty has never wavered. What I couldn't comprehend was how I could have been made in such defiance of what I was told were His laws, His rules. Obviously I was failing as a Christian. If I were stronger, if my faith were greater then I wouldn't find myself struggling with this temptation.

I remember attending a church event at a large Baptist church in my area when I was in high school. They were worshiping, singing, and I felt that sense of peace that only comes from God. But then they began to speak about "those things we hide in our hearts." I'm gay, I thought and felt sick. Then one of the youth pastors noticed my distress and, pulling me to the side, asked me if there was anything I needed to share. I'd never told anyone. Never voiced, to anyone, what I was terrified was an irredeemable flaw on my part. But I needed it then. Needed the release of sharing the weight of what I thought was my greatest failing.

So I whispered to her that I thought that, maybe, I was was attracted to girls.

"Have you ever...?" She asked me, obviously trying hard not to let her horror show.

"No."

"Good." And she gave me what I supposed she thought was assuring smile. "We can help you with this. You don't have to be that way."

And in that moment something inside me clicked. Because all I could think was, "But why can't I?"

I would ask myself this question again and again in the years that followed. I would pray and question and deny and, in the end, wouldn't breath word of this to another soul until after I graduated from college. Wouldn't dare to say out loud what I'd feared, and finally accepted to be true back in high school, until a year ago. I was 23. And even though I told my best friend. Even though I knew that Wayne cared about me and would never, never turn her back on me, I still remember the moment of fear that left my mouth dry. Because what if Wayne, of the unshakable faith, turned to me and said that she could only "love the sinner but not the sin"?

There is a kind of deep and unwavering self loathing that you struggle with when you look at what you are sure you are meant to be, and yet fail to achieve. It is fed by a guilt that grows and expands every time you hear the word "sinner" and know that, whether the people around you know it or not, they're speaking about you. It is the usual "coming out" story made that much worse by the fact that you are unable to even come out to yourself. The moment you acknowledge your sexuality as true, you must also accept that, if what the world around you says is right about their God, then you have moved outside God's favor.

Every one accepts themselves along a different timeline. Each person has life defining epiphanies at unique moments in their lives. I have yet to come out to my parents, though my younger sister knows. Why? Because my father's faith has no place for homosexuality as anything other than sin. Even later, I know my father would love me but it wouldn't be acceptance. It would be love in spite of this sin I refuse to let go of. He doesn't hate, but he is like too many others, unable to see past what it is that they have been told it is "good" and "right" to love.

A friend once told me that being gay had to be a choice. "I just don't think that a God that loves His children would make anyone something that wrong on purpose." I don't think it had ever occurred to her that maybe God could love his children even if they are gay.

I read what these people have said. I read the hate and loathing and the fear in their words and I think about how far I have come, how many times I walked to the edge and nearly let them and their small minded words, small minded god, push me over the side. And then I remember my God. I remember and know that it was Him, and my faith in Him that pulled me back from that same edge. It's that same knowledge that gives me my resolve.

I refuse to allow these people the power to take away my faith. I refuse to allow these people and their fear to force me away from the church in which I find love. I refuse to allow these people to change God from a creator who loves, into a weapon of hate.

I'm well aware of the fact that these are all issues we've seen before. It isn't anything new that there is hate in the world, or that much of it is couched in unreasonable, and patently insane, religious terms. But that isn't the God I worship. That isn't the faith that has helped me and made me the person I am today. None of this makes these words hurt any less though. None of this makes me any less angry or offended. You should be too if only because Faith, religious or otherwise, is an intensely personal thing. And yet there are people in the world who seek to rob us of even that. It's our right to defend our own, personal faiths, with as much strength, with as much volume and as much defiance as they do their, "sanctity of marriage," or "family values."

It is our right and it is our job. Arm yourselves well.

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It is our right and it is our job. Arm yourselves well.

So right. You go girl!

"Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind." If God really does love his children no matter what, so much that He sent His Son to die for them, then of course He will accept you all.

I refuse to allow these people the power to take away my faith.
Good on ya. It's their opinion, and no human opinion counts: look through God's eyes and everyone, including homosexuals, is beautiful.

If God really does love his children no matter what, so much that He sent His Son to die for them, then of course He will accept you all.

And this is what I keep coming back to. Because really, this is, in the sense of the Love of God and our position as a church family, that holds us together. Because none of us are so great that we don't need God.

*grins* But thanks for the support. It's good to know that it's there.

This is just beautiful. ::hugs::

*hugs back* Thank you. This particular, well, I don't know that it's a rant exactly, but whatever you want to call it, it's been building for a while. I'm just glad that now that I've finally gotten it out I still make sense. *smiles* You know how it can get with these more emotionally fraught issues.

Oh, yes, very much so. XD

Heh. And thanks for the rec. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy like *G*

Hee hee! You're welcome. XD

Hm. This is a topic I've spent quite a lot of time pondering, and it seems to me to be thus:

- God hates the sin but loves the sinner.
Very standard. But the question is, what is the sin per se?

It's pretty much unequivocally stated that it is a sin for a man to lie with a man (and by analogy, for a woman to lie with a woman), but this is a sin on par with and in the same category as any other sin of sexual immorality. This in turn equates two things:

The first is pretty much basic -- if you're Protestant, then you'd probably subscribe to the doctrine that we are all sinners, but we have all been redeemed by the blood of Christ, and no sin is greater than any other sin. Therefore, singling out homosexuals as 'Hell-bound' doesn't make doctrinal sense.

The second is my own conclusion and slightly further out -- the problem with homosexuality is not the love, nor the attraction, but the fact that homosexuals have sex for the sole purpose of having sex (as opposed to having sex for the sake of procreation.) And the problem with that is not so much that sex itself is a sin, but that it is a thing of the flesh, not of the Spirit.

From what I've seen thus far, homosexuality isn't exactly singled out for bashing -- it's always one line in a whole paragraph about fornication, bestiality and occasionally, adultery, etc. From context, therefore, it's very clear that it's certainly not love that's the problem -- the problem would be a person who wantonly and unrepentently indulges in the pleasures of the flesh.

While people are likely to jump on me and accuse me of a hair-splitting meaning-changing lawyer, it seems to me as clear as day. But for me, the clearest answer is the fact that I have a girlfriend that I love and adore (but whom I'll never sleep with), and our relationship of which I've prayed again and again and again about, and I've never received any sense of censure, nor has the Father seen fit to curtail it despite my asking that He do so if it displeases Him. Because, from everything I've read in the Bible, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Love itself.

The problem is that a lot of these hate-mongers don't think. I find that an appalling number of my Christian counterparts have been brought up believing that homosexuality = bad, gays = going to Hell, and homosexuality is somehow a cardinal sin worse than murder, and accept that as Gospel truth. The problem is that people have been so conditioned into believing that it's unnatural and wrong that they react on a instinctive gut level instead of on an intellectual level, and they just /can't/ learn to accept it, no matter how prolifically one might argue the case. (The smarter ones I know admit to this :P).

Whatever it is, I hope you find an answer one day. But I certainly agree that there's absolutely no room for hate in our faith.

homosexuals have sex for the sole purpose of having sex (as opposed to having sex for the sake of procreation.)

Don't mean to jump in and nipick here, but I was always taught that sex had two goals for the spiritual couple -- procreation and bringing the couple closer to spiritual oneness. I was told that was the reason why couples that couldn't reproduce were allowed to marry.

That's a good point and I've thought about it too. I know several people (my grandmother even being one of them) who are unable to have children. Are they just screwed? Should they never get married because they can't procreate? That just seemes like such a HUGE gap in that logic.

God hates the sin but loves the sinner.

That is a line that never fails to piss me off. 'Cause, like, who the hell gave them the right to judge what's a sin and who's a sinner? It's been a long time since I last went to church, but I distinctly remember something like, "Judge not, lest ye also be judged." It's people like that who give Christianity a bad name.

I often feel that, as a straight woman (also, despite having gay friends and being an active liberal), I don’t really understand what it’s like to come out. I can say I empathize, but do I? I want my words of encouragement to have meaning and basis; things like this help me. Thank you for sharing this glimpse. *fierce hug*

Be strong, babe. We’re always here for you if you need us.

It's true that it's hard to say that you understand something you've never been through, but even the attempt at understanding is always, always appreciated.

What's important to understand -- and what took me years to understand -- is that each of us come to these understandings in our own time. It's totally unfair to try and push someone into revealing something like this before they're ready. When my sister found out that was perhaps the hardest part of the whole thing. Her need for my parents to know made her feel that she had the right to make me tell them. Despite the fact that was -- and still am -- a million miles from being ready for that.

Often times the best kind of support that you can give is to simply let someone speak. Sometimes, that's all it takes. Just one person to listen, to not judge, but to be a sounding board. I know that without Wayne I would have just gone on holding it in, never even able to reach the point where I could say something like what wrote here, to myself.

*hugs hard* It means so much to have the support of friends, even if we are far apart. Thanks, babe.

Okay, here goes. Personal opinion disclaimers apply.
People do hate and fear the different. And really, they don't need religion to back them up. I was growing up in an officially atheist country, and no, there was no acceptance or tolerance, in fact, male homosexual practice (consentual, yes) was a criminal offense till 1990s. So, anyway.
That aside, there are pretty much only two ways we can really learn anything about God. Not from preaching, they are human like us and can be - mistaken, let's call it that. So, the Bible. And what's in our heart.
And I'm not that much of a scholar, but I've come across some sources that say that, sure, Old Testament condemns homosexual prostitution, rape, child abuse, promiscuity, same way it does with heterosexual versions of all that. But it doesn't really say anything about loving, monogamous, committed same-sex relationships. I also read that the word that is translated as "sodomite" in King James's in original Hebrew refers to a male (pagan) temple prostitute. Which, yeah, totally a different story.
But what my heart tells me is this. Even WE can love someone like we do, regardless if they are the same denomination, or subscribe to same worldview, or have no faults, or if they even love us back. No reasoning, no justification needed. So. Really. We shoulnd't doubt.

Thumbs up.

It's true. The idea is love. The purpose, is love. And if God's purpose is to encourage love, and peace and to create "heaven on Earth" then what point would there be in His denying the validity of love based because two people are the same gender.

People get so hung up on the sex aspect of being gay that they choose to ignore the fundamental underlying principle that for all that it is based in sexuality, the need for love is still the same. Over indulgence in sex of any kind can be take and a bad thing, be it hetero or not. Really, the sin is in the "lust" and "gluttony" and not who the sex is with.

But you're right. If we are strong enough to love in spite of all the differences we find in people every day, we have no reason to doubt that God can love us just as well.

*applauds*

*smiles* Thanks. Sometime these things just need to be said.

*crickets chirping* ..Perhaps I shouldn't have a say in it at all, facing the lesser part of the problem, being introduced to religion in the more or less conscious age. And pretty fast deciding that I wasn't gonna make religious institutions a part of my life. Faith and our earthly imposed media for it just aren't the same.

Ah, I can understand those quoting sacred texts for justification or excuse, but it makes me sad, this approach. Recalling history and how one word became a lever in a (politics-inspired, duh) crack between catholic and orthodox churches - does it make any of them less valid now?

.....oh. I should better stop now. I just hate it when religion has anything to do with state, when beliefs are turned from an inner guideline into a tool and a weapon.

Um. That all goes to say that once an inside conflict becomes an outside conflict, fighting is much easier (and it is the case now, right?); and that, from my small and distant side, I'm not backing away from this fight.

Oh, Rune... *huge hugs*

I think I've said this before, but I was brought up (religiously) the same way as you--that restrictive kind of religion where "gay is wrong." Knowing that, I admire you deeply for being able to come to terms with a part of yourself that church went against, and still know that God loves you. That will -always- be something you can look on and be proud of--that no matter how much struggle it took, you kept a piece of yourself no matter what this part of the religion thought, and did it even though belief is insanely hard to change.

Being queer and Christian are two things that most people seem to feel are mutually exclusive, but I can't agree.

WORD. I don't see how God can be one that looks down on love of any kind, and pleasure that does harm to no one. You (& me & Ryu & tons of other people) believe in this God--I'm certain that the rest of his followers will understand too, soon.

♥

Somehow just getting to say all this, getting to see that there are others who've grown up in the same tradition and who have struggled in with the same concepts, really is comforting. Even if a lot of you aren't coming from the same place as me, there is a intense kind of joy that comes from knowing that the Church I walk into tomorrow will be different from the Church I walk into tomorrow. And it's because there are people thinking and questioning and loving the way it was meant.

*hugs* Thanks, babe.

This is, fortunately, an issue I never had to face, 'cause I gave up religion long before I realized that I liked girls "that way." It makes me glad to read about somebody whose faith in God helps them deal with being queer in a queer-unfriendly society; it's so often the opposite case. Go you!

The good news is, our side is winning. That's why all those whack-jobs are so worked up. Twenty, even ten, years ago, there weren't any state constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage, because the very notion was unthinkable. Now, it's thinkable.

Twenty, even ten, years ago, there weren't any state constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage, because the very notion was unthinkable. Now, it's thinkable.

You know, I hadn't thought about any of this in that light at all before I read that. It leaves me feeling both slightly bubbly, and moderately terrified, but I think the sense of resolve is just growing. Because you're right. The Right is scared because, at last, we're a movement who can make things happen. Their little world is shaking, and it's because we're rockin' the boat. *G*

Some people will always find a reason to hate other people.

I admire your courage and strength.

/hugs

*hugs back* Thanks. It really is appreciated.

You're right not to let people tell you God doesn't love you.

It is our right and it is our job. Arm yourselves well.

A lot of people read what they've been told is in the Bible, rather than what's actually there. I've found that getting people to see what's there can change minds and hearts. Perhaps these few things I wrote (http://www.livejournal.com/users/daegaer/tag/homosexuality) might prove useful to you.

Exactly. There seems to be a prevalent sense within the Christian community that questioning the particular bent that current society demands of religion is intrinsically wrong. You dare to try and read the words of the Bible rather than the dogma of the church? Straight to hell for you!

If find myself intensely saddened by the number of queer folk I know who've walked away from a church that refuses to accept that maybe they're reading the same Bible we are, but just in completely different light.

And thank you for the links. I will definitely be looking them over. *G*

Yeah. Yeah. The idea of "we hate what you do but love who you are" is one of the most disgusting and hypocritical messages ever, and all my empathy and love for anyone who had to deal with that shit.
In rebuttal, I always like to offer Ecclesiastes 7:13 "Consider the work of God; for who can make straight what He has made crooked?"

-'dog
(who is very happy she grew up and came out in the San Fagcisco Bay Area.)

One of the analogies I've heard most frequently in terms of the "love the sinner, not the sin," argument is one which equates alcoholism with being gay.

The idea being that it isn't the individual who we are supposed to hold in contempt, but what their addiction, their disease has done to them. You don't hate your brother because he drinks too much. You hate that he drinks too much. The same is said then of the brother who is gay. You don't hate him. You hate that he sleeps with men.

Where their argument falls apart though, I think, is in terms of the reasons for hating these "sins." Being an alcoholic has affect on every one around the individual. There are huge detrimental effects to reaching a point where one's drinking makes one unable to function in regular society. The thing is, my falling love with, or sleeping with, another girl affects no one but my partner and myself. I don't stop feeding my kids. I don't start accosting people on the street. All my money isn't automatically diverted towards porn and sex toys. Being gay doesn't make me depraved or harmful to the general public.

What is most saddening about this whole argument is that all of this is what many people really think Christian love should be. Being gay is viewed as a sin, and yet, in spite of this, they are trying to love us. They are attempting to look past what they feel is a moral failing and show us God's love anyway. What the real problem is though, is that they haven't ever stopped to consider that maybe God made us just the way he wanted us in the first place.

i'm an atheist, but living in the south, baptism is not what christianity is supposed to be. *hugs*

No. A lot of the time it's not.

*smiles* But, like someone said in another comment, we are winning, so there's hope yet.

Thank you.

just...thank you for saying this.

Some things... Some things just need to be said.

*hugs* No, thank you for reading, for taking that moment to consider. That's where change starts.

I was linked here by

permetaform...thank you so much for saying all of this. I grew up very active in my Catholic parish, and I still am...it's part of my life and I love it. I'm also bisexual, and was afraid for far too long a time of ever coming forward to anybody. My father is a conservative Republican, and probably would react much like you say your father would, if I ever told him. It turns out that those who I work with in the church are some of the most supportive people I've dealt with...they are the people who *know* religion and *know* ministry, not like all these self-proclaimed prophets and advocates for the religious Right who wouldn't know real Christianity if it slapped them in the face. It feels so good to hear from someone who has had similar experiences to mine.

(and completely unrelated, I love your icons...the WK OAVs are vastly underappreciated ^_^)

Well, yeah. Sometimes these things just need to be said.

What has held me up for so long is how hard it can be to reconcile both being a Christian and being gay. It's only in retrospect that I see how much of that difficulty comes not from either my sexuality or my faith, but instead from what others have told me my faith and my sexuality should be. And really, who are they to dictate either of those things for me?

Honestly, one of the most encouraging aspects of saying all of this has actually come from the people who've read it and responded with similar stories of their own. There's so much strength and hope to be found in know you're not alone. And we aren't. God doesn't leave us, and He certainly hasn't left us here without friends.

(I just love Ken. If he looked as good in the series as he does in the OVA so many other people would love him too. *G*)

You know what? I support you. All tose times you had to suffer, I am sorry. I'm not a Christian, but even I understand that those who don't understand that GOD LOVES EVERYONE are not real Christians. They're club members, trying to belong n something that gives them power and a safe thing to base their lives on. Every single thing those horribly brainwashed people said made me cringe. I am sad for you, but then again, I am happy. You know who you are, and never lose sight of that.

*grins* Thanks.

And yeah, that's really what it all comes down to. You can't say your living a life of love if you don't actually live it.

Faith is one of those things we have because we need it. It's like hope, and you're right I haven't give that up at all. *G*

::hugs hard:: did not know how to respond, so just pimped. You rock, just so you know.

*hugshugs*

Thanks dude.

Hi, sorry to barge in, but I followed a link over from

th_nightengale and I'm so glad I did.

I've been dealing with this issue for years now, years replete with hearing my family say hurtful things about gays and lesbians and feeling uncomfortable walking into church because I was convinced that, being gay, it was a slap in God's face and, despite being taught that God never rescinds his love, felt that I had sinned and fallen short of the glory, as it were. The same sort of thing most people deal with, I'm sure.

It is relieving to know that others have been where I am now, and have come to the same conclusion that you can be gay and be a Christian at the same time. And that helps me to feel a little more at peace with myself.

So, thanks for putting your struggle into words (very eloquently, at that) and giving others some hope, as well. God bless :)

Hey, no need to apologize for anything.

*slightly sheepish* 'Gale actually mentioned a post you put up and asked me if I had anything I thought would be good to say and I just suggested she link you here. 'Cause, really, this kinda says it all.

One of the biggest parts of me realizing I was "okay" was just finding out that my being Gay (whoa, capital letters) didn't make me feel any less close to God. The only thing that was making me feel that way was what other people were saying. And really, it's not about what others think of your relationship with God. It's how you and He relate on a personal level.

*smiles* I'm wickedly happy if anything I've said has done you any good, in any way. *hugs*

'Gale actually mentioned a post you put up and asked me if I had anything I thought would be good to say and I just suggested she link you here

No kidding? The link I followed was from a post which had nothing to do with me. But it was very kind of her (and you) to think of me.

Thanks again ^_^

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A question of faith.

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Two cents.. no, make that 3 ^^

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